tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post7597492469964864016..comments2023-08-08T04:19:26.974-07:00Comments on THE CALLADUS BLOG: "God did it!" - This is a dishonest answerCalladushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-26404636967619991862012-02-13T17:56:08.602-08:002012-02-13T17:56:08.602-08:00Hello Calladus,
I understand. Theology cannot be ...Hello Calladus,<br /><br />I understand. Theology cannot be in poetry. Russell was just being rhetorical. I found my life on despair.<br /> In the face of such devastating logic and profound insight I must admit defeat.Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-18890521548851972262012-02-09T07:59:19.869-08:002012-02-09T07:59:19.869-08:00I'm sorry that your life is founded on despair...I'm sorry that your life is founded on despair, Atasca. Mine isn't.<br /><br />But unfortunately, if all you feel is despair, then of course you would project that feeling to everyone else. This is why you can't see that Russell has asked a rhetorical question, and then answered it.<br /><br />Perhaps you should stop writing to a blog, and seek more professional help.Calladushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-73074140077294859962012-02-08T18:02:52.638-08:002012-02-08T18:02:52.638-08:00Hello Calladus,
I never said that Russell said the...Hello Calladus,<br />I never said that Russell said there is only despair. But it is obviously "foundational" to his belief system. I will take him at his word on that. There is despair in everyone's life. How we handle it is what varies. I am still not sure where you stand on this but that is ok. <br /><br />Your hammer metaphor is interesting but I may have to have you elaborate. A hammer can be used as a tool to build or can be perverted into a weapon. Whichever, I guess it is all I have?<br /><br />Poetry and theology are not mutually exclusive. I believe we express our "theology" or basic beliefs in the most ordinary ways or in ways not so ordinary.<br /><br />Religious imagery can be beautiful as you say and not just in the English language. Maybe this imagery is beguiling and takes us away from the real facts?Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-25174465470203532942012-02-07T00:28:41.571-08:002012-02-07T00:28:41.571-08:00Speaking as a theist, I think "supernatural&q...Speaking as a theist, I think "supernatural" is a category error, but one not critical for theism. I thus find Atasca's comments shallow and pointless. On the other hand, I don't think "God did it" lacks moral fiber as much as it lacks imagination.Scott Hatfield . . . .https://www.blogger.com/profile/00363885800131794994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-17979190935996831502012-02-06T09:51:09.723-08:002012-02-06T09:51:09.723-08:00No, I disagree with your interpretation of Russell...No, I disagree with your interpretation of Russell that there is only despair. You are seeing what you want to see, and disregarding what Russell (and I) have said.Calladushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-84949359015358439882012-02-06T08:43:52.443-08:002012-02-06T08:43:52.443-08:00You are right - I evidently don't get it. I as...You are right - I evidently don't get it. I assume that you disagree with Russel in that there is no despair?<br /><br />I love your second statement. I have some initial thoughts but I will think on it a while.<br /><br />This is good. Thank you.Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-3086452978795306522012-02-06T08:28:48.196-08:002012-02-06T08:28:48.196-08:00I still don't see a response to his statement ...<i>I still don't see a response to his statement about ultimate purpose- or purposelessness</i><br /><br />We are free. We are responsible for our actions. This is the response. It is a satisfying response for me, and for many others. I'm sorry that you don't get this.<br /><br /><i>I also see a bizarre and fascinating parallel in his "theology" with other religions.</i><br /><br />Yes, I know. When all you have is a hammer, the whole world is a nail. You are immersed in your theology, so of course you will assign poetry to theology. It's not completely your fault that you do this - the most poetic words in the English language have more than a passing connection to religion.Calladushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-59733617596771874772012-02-06T08:15:46.963-08:002012-02-06T08:15:46.963-08:00Very good Calladus. Please don't be combative ...Very good Calladus. Please don't be combative when I say this but you shouldn't presume to read my mind when I ask a question. I am simply asking a question because I would like to know your thoughts. The paragraph is very interesting but I still don't see a response to his statement about ultimate purpose- or purposelessness. The "firm foundation of despair".<br /><br />I also see a bizarre and fascinating parallel in his "theology" with other religions.<br />I.e. "Nature in her omnipotence", "has brought forth a child" - "unthinking Mother" "Death- the mark and seal of parental control" "Man is yet free" ending in deification of Man "his superiority to the restless forces that control his outward life".<br /> Those restless forces may be inferior but they do control, don't they?<br />Great quote.Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-49981361306125625032012-02-05T14:42:06.181-08:002012-02-05T14:42:06.181-08:00When you quote Bertram Russell's article "...When you quote Bertram Russell's article "A Free Man's Worship", please do not do Mr. Russell the disfavor of "Quote mining" his words to mean what you want them to mean, instead of what he wanted the article in its entirety to mean.<br /><br />In the paragraph after your quotation, where Russell asks his rhetorical question, he answers it by saying:<br /><i>How, in such an alien and inhuman world, can so powerless a creature as Man preserve his aspirations untarnished? A strange mystery it is that Nature, omnipotent but blind, in the revolutions of her secular hurryings through the abysses of space, has brought forth at last a child, subject still to her power, but gifted with sight, with knowledge of good and evil, with the capacity of judging all the works of his unthinking Mother. In spite of Death, the mark and seal of the parental control, Man is yet free, during his brief years, to examine, to criticise, to know, and in imagination to create. To him alone, in the world with which he is acquainted, this freedom belongs; and in this lies his superiority to the resistless forces that control his outward life.</i><br /><br />Yes, Russell says, "we are alone" and we alone have the power to understand what is right and wrong, because there is no other. We alone have the freedom to act, and we alone are responsible for our actions. <br /><br />We alone, are responsible for our actions, toward each other. <br /><br />Upon that statement a true moral and ethical code can be created. Upon that statement a purpose for our lives can be found.<br /><br />I'll respond further as I have time.Calladushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-1414497246560555122012-02-05T06:21:55.632-08:002012-02-05T06:21:55.632-08:00Hello Calladus,
Thanks for your response. I have ...Hello Calladus,<br /><br />Thanks for your response. I have little doubt that your intelligence quotient is higher than mine. I am not being a smart*ss when I say that. I am in awe of the accomplishments of the field of engineering. Nevertheless, if something doesn't make sense to me, I must ask questions. Substantive questions are very often pointed. Please try not to see these questions as attacks or these responses as attempts to humiliate. <br /><br />The capitalization of "purpose" is brilliant. I should have thought of it. This is one of the most important questions we can ask ourselves. One of the best ways to get to know ourselves. One of the best ways to make the world a better place. It is definitely something big. <br /><br />"I try to understand ethics".<br />What you strive to do is commendable in my mind.<br />Where do you get your ethics?<br />What is a "decent" person?<br /><br />I can't help but ask again - if you and all of these people and the society they live in will be anhiliated (sp) and therefore, in the grand scheme of things,never have existed, what is the purpose?<br />This is somewhat an emotional appeal but, mostly, an appeal to sanity.<br /><br />Bertrand Russell wrote - "the whole temple of man's achievements is destined to be buried beneath of the debris of a universe in ruins" and "no thought, no heroism can sustain an individual life beyond the grave". He realized that such a belief system necesitated us building our lives on "the firm foundation of unyielding despair." Is he not being honest about the anti-theistic view of life?<br /><br />As you know, I believe in an existent "deity". However, I don't feel that I am "groveling" before it when I worship.<br />Why do you think that is? Is it simply cultural conditioning or self-delusion or, God forbid, stupidity? (That seems, for most people,to be the ultimate insult)<br />Am I a threat to a better society because of this?Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-64856677007184576252012-02-03T11:34:51.640-08:002012-02-03T11:34:51.640-08:00You need to capitalize that don't you? "...You need to capitalize that don't you? "What is the PURPOSE that you've assigned yourself"<br /><br />Are you asking for something big? Something eternal? Because the universe we live in isn't eternal.<br /><br />Here is what I strive to do with my life.<br /><br />I try to understand ethics. I promote the ways of finding knowledge that actually work, I try to promote the welfare of my fellow humans, and I do so (mostly) locally instead of globally.<br /><br />I try to be a decent person. Not because it is demanded by a deity, but because we all do better when we live in a society made of decent people.<br /><br />And I tend to point out that since we all only have this limited time to live, that it is extremely important that we care about each other NOW, instead of wasting our efforts to procure some future nonexistent afterlife by groveling before some nonexistent deity.Calladushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-46491608589470136922012-01-22T12:46:23.753-08:002012-01-22T12:46:23.753-08:00Calladus,
You have said that we make our on meani...Calladus,<br /><br />You have said that we make our on meaning in this life.(Please - this is just a paraphrase) What is the purpose you have assigned for yourself in this life?Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-81891858406761543332012-01-14T12:46:14.950-08:002012-01-14T12:46:14.950-08:00I'll get to the rest of your comments later At...I'll get to the rest of your comments later Atasca. But I want to address on thing first. You said, <br /><i>Atheism requires faith as much as any religion.</i><br /><br />This is not true. You've claimed this earlier, and I've demonstrated why it is not true. And yet you continue to claim this.<br /><br />This is an excellent demonstration of the closed-mindedness that is inherent in some religious people.<br /><br />This is an excellent example that you are unwilling to learn even something so simple, that you are more comfortable sticking your fingers in your ears and blinding yourself with a religious blindfold.<br /><br />This sort of willful, deliberate, ignorance is exactly what I've railed about in this blog post. This inherent dishonesty aptly demonstrated by you here.<br /><br />And it saddens me. Because you are propping up a wall of BULLSHIT with your intellectual dishonesty. Because you are happier to believe that you are right instead of actually, honestly examining the answer. Because of this, it is clear we have little common ground.<br /><br />This is sad. And it is very telling about you.Calladushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-90104883658525136782012-01-14T09:41:20.313-08:002012-01-14T09:41:20.313-08:00There is really not enough space to respond proper...There is really not enough space to respond properly so I will be brief.<br /><br />Can we not determine there will be a heat death of the universe through the second law of thermodynamics?<br /><br />We should believe the truth even if it is uncomfortable.<br /><br />You used Hitchens and Flew. Welcome to the heartless individual club. I would be thrilled if someone used my mistakes in this life to help someone not to do the same thing. I would not consider them heartless.<br /><br />I didn't misquote. I was simply pointing out that believing that Hitchens was punished by god with cancer was ridiculous. Obviously I know that you don't believe that.<br /><br />Meaning is found in what we believe. What we believe determines what we do.<br /><br />Believing that one forest is made of many trees is simplistic and true.<br /><br />The doctrine of hell can hardly be treated properly here due to space resrictions. But quickly-<br />Hell exists. It is a result of the free will given by God to his creation, mankind. It is willful separation by the creation from the creator, the source of all life in the universe.It is therefore an existential nightmare. Hence the attempts to describe it as fire or outer darkness. It is a consequence, not a punishment. <br />For a brilliant treatment of the subject, if you are ever so inclined, read C.S. Lewis.<br /><br />We all have the need to find an object for our faith. Atheism requires faith as much as any religion. I am skeptical of your claim that there is no god. Your evidence is not conclusive just as mine is not. You believe in materialism. I believe in a benevolent creator.<br />I can never see a human as simply a brain supported by a protoplasmic structure governed by chemical reactions and electrical impulses. I see not just a brain, but a mind. Not just a physical body, but an immportal soul. <br />I believe we all have a purpose. You believe we come from nothing and go to nothing. <br />You would probably acknowledge the existence of love, hate, ideas, theories. <br />These things exist but by your reasoning there is no evidence for them. <br />I see, even in the one dimensional arena of "evidence" you assign all importance to, hints of levels of existence other than this life.<br /><br />This is ultimately a psychological issue. Acknowledgment of a power greater than oneself causes a death of sorts. A death of the ego. It is therfore very difficult to accept.Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-46120539406799619262012-01-06T14:56:41.502-08:002012-01-06T14:56:41.502-08:00Seriously, is the law of entropy totally invalidat...<i>Seriously, is the law of entropy totally invalidated?</i><br /><br />Seriously, what does entropy have to do with causality?<br /><br />I'll break it down for you. You've stated that, "I said everything that has a beginning must have a cause". You seem to believe that the state of reality can be shown to be determined by a prior state. In other words, "the universe exists, it didn't exist prior to its existence, therefore something caused it to exist." <br /><br />This statement is not reflected by reality. <br /><br />There are a class of quantum-level events that happen uncaused. This is not a reversal of entropy, and it is a phenomenon that scientists and engineers make use of to build everyday things.<br /><br />Although these uncaused events happen at a quantum level, they have a real effect on standard physics, and are statistically predictable. (Called determined probability) This is how we can calculate the rate of radioactive decay, without being able to pinpoint the cause of any one atom of decay.<br /><br /><i>Does the truth ever make you uncomfortable? If so, how?</i><br />What does it matter? Should I believe in a lie if the truth makes me uncomfortable? <br /><br />Tell me, is it important to you that you know that what you believe is true?<br /><br /><i>Righteous indignation has never invalidated a position.</i> Correct. But it does well in pointing out a heartless individual who is willing to use a logical fallacy to make puppets of dead people in an attempt to prop up their beliefs.<br /><br />I'm amused again at how you misquote me as saying that God punished Hitchens, when I was asking if that was what you believed. As for Anthony Flew, I am somewhat surprised you don't know of him. He became very famous in Christian circles for renouncing atheism to become a deist.<br /><br /><i>My point is the effect that meaninglessness has on the human psyche.</i><br />You are the one who is asserting that life without a deity is meaningless. Not I. Meaning is found in what we do. <br /><br />You seem to agree with that, while completely (perhaps intentionally) missing my point about believing what you want to believe, rather than what is true.<br /><br /><i>What do you mean by a "black and white universe"?</i> <br /><br />I mean that you apparently believe in a simplistic universe with easy answers, and are unable to come to grips with the truth that the universe does not conform to your beliefs about it. <br /><br /><i>Of course I believe in hell. Why would I not? A meaningless life would be hell for me. ... Hell is truly a state of mind.</i><br /><br />This sounds like an equivocation. So I'll be more specific in my question. Do you believe in the immortality of all human souls, and that those souls that do not proceed to Heaven will instead go to a place that is not Heaven? And if so, how would you describe this place?<br /><br />Christian beliefs are all over the map on this - and I'm curious how you would answer.<br /><br />It looks like Peter is finished speaking with you. I am almost at my limit too. The amount of intellectual dishonesty that you have displayed here is instructive.<br /><br />So, let's cut to the chase - I've asked you before to give evidence for God. Please do so now. <br /><br />You have claimed there is a God. I do not claim to know that there is NO deity, but I have no reason to believe your claim without evidence.Calladushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-59042999476216402322012-01-06T07:14:27.882-08:002012-01-06T07:14:27.882-08:00Atasca,
You said: "What is your argument?&qu...Atasca,<br /><br />You said: "What is your argument?"<br /><br />Now you're just being stupid. I'm done talking to you.Peter Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15026459298407890137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-526094283116850962012-01-05T22:41:54.655-08:002012-01-05T22:41:54.655-08:00Atasca, you said, "Please don't misquote ...Atasca, you said, <i>"Please don't misquote me"</i>. However, you do not feel bound to your own request?<br /><br />How nice.<br /><br />I'll have more to say later.Calladushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-58148929237884098582012-01-05T18:31:54.972-08:002012-01-05T18:31:54.972-08:00" You are being willfully stupid. Stop that.&..." You are being willfully stupid. Stop that."<br />Seriously, is the law of entropy totally invalidated?<br /><br />"One of the many theories .... doesn't require a beginning. ... this would fit your definintion of God nicely."<br /><br />At least you quoted me correctly. <br />One the claims of atheists is that they have better arguments. As you have stated, God meets this criterion as well as an eternal universe.<br /><br />"Exactly!"<br />Religion is the opiate of the masses ????<br /><br />Of course I believe in hell. Why would I not? A meaningless life would be hell for me. If that is because I am not tough enough psychologically, then so be it. Hell is truly a state of mind. <br /><br />"That would seem to me to be an excellent description of any religion."<br />Fits Humanism the best.<br /><br />.."I would rather know the truth than be comfortable with a lie."<br />Does the truth ever make you uncomfortable? If so, how?<br /><br />"Meaning is what we make of it."<br />Very true. Why mention winning the Lotto or finding diamonds in the back yard? Is that what you would wish for if you didn't have to contend with the truth?<br /><br />"I am extremely disappointed with your vulture-like attack...."<br />At least I rate enough to dissapoint.<br /><br />Righteous indignation has never invalidated a position.<br /><br />Your view of their deaths is what you have made of them. My point is the effect that meaninglessness has on the human psyche.<br /><br /><br /><br />"...God punished Hitchens with cancer?... Anthony Flew... negate all of his previous works?"<br /><br />I am not sure how to react. Where do you get this stuff? You are implying that God has punished Hitchens or anyone else with cancer? Huh? <br />Please explain the part about the negation of Anthony Flews works.<br />Excuse my ignorance.<br /><br />".. simplistic, black and white universe.. Life is much more complex."<br />What do you mean by a "black and white universe"?Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-1300149502125677922012-01-05T17:28:20.445-08:002012-01-05T17:28:20.445-08:00What is your argument?What is your argument?Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-939363055045872772012-01-03T14:40:54.563-08:002012-01-03T14:40:54.563-08:00Atasca,
You said, "I am probably out of my l...Atasca,<br /><br />You said, "I am probably out of my league philosophically."<br /><br />I should hope not. My argument is not especially complicated.Peter Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15026459298407890137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-41714153628283401232012-01-01T09:54:21.475-08:002012-01-01T09:54:21.475-08:00You have obviously determined that the universe is...<i>You have obviously determined that the universe is not deterministic.<br /><br />...<br /><br />You have determined that the universe will wind down to its heat death.<br />You have again contradicted yourself.<br />Please make up your mind. </i><br /><br />You are being willfully stupid. Stop that.<br /><br /><i>I said everything that has a beginning must have a cause.</i><br /><br />One of (the many) theories in physics is that our universe is the natural outcome of a larger Meta-verse, that has no beginning. This would fit your definition nicely, and not require a God.<br /><br /><i>You didn't exist then. How could you be bothered by anything?</i><br /><br /><b>Exactly!</b><br /><br /><i>God doesn't torture anyone.<br />...<br /><br />I believe there are permanent consequences for the decisions I make. </i><br /><br />Is one of these "consequences" an eternity in Hell? Or are you one of those Christians who doesn't believe in Hell?<br /><br /><i>That faith would be based on one-dimensional evidence that I would chose to believe because it confirms my pre-conceived notions.</i> <br /><br />This would seem to be an excellent description of any religion.<br /><br /><i>All of this - meaningless??</i><br />This is a Red Herring logical fallacy, specifically, it is an appeal to emotion.<br /><br />It doesn't matter if it makes me feel bad that I didn't win this week's California lotto - the truth is still the truth.<br /><br />And frankly, I would rather know the truth than to be satisfied with a comfortable lie.<br /><br />Maybe it might make you feel good, make your life "have meaning" to imagine that you have a chest full of diamonds buried in your backyard. Maybe you can be happy living in that sort of delusion. But I cannot be.<br /><br />So is my life without purpose or meaning? No. It is not. Meaning is what we make of it.<br /><br /><i>Hemingway ... Nietzsche</i><br /><br />I am extremely disappointed in your vulture-like attack on people due to their deaths. Do you think that God punished Hitchens with cancer too? Are you one of those who crow that Anthony Flew's denial of atheism at the end of his life negate all of his previous works?<br /><br />This is a very simplistic, black and white universe you seem to want to believe in. In reality, life is much more complex. <br /><br />Here's a hint... read up about what happened to Hemingway before he died, before you exhume his corpse and make it dance to your holy music.Calladushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-59185754633810592011-12-31T07:10:42.729-08:002011-12-31T07:10:42.729-08:00Peter,
My comments were a poor attempt at humor.
...Peter,<br /><br />My comments were a poor attempt at humor.<br />I never said knowledge is wholly subject. That is silly. <br />I am probably out of my league philosophically, but I will respond after I look at this a bit. I am hoping to learn something.Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-39647036498749742192011-12-31T07:00:41.385-08:002011-12-31T07:00:41.385-08:00Calladus,
"Are you saying we live in a deter...Calladus,<br /><br />"Are you saying we live in a deterministic universe? That is not the case."<br />You have obviously determined that the universe is not deterministic.<br /><br />"I won't be bothered by my non-existence for the several trillion years it takes to wind down to its heat death."<br />You have determined that the universe will wind down to its heat death.<br />You have again contradicted yourself.<br /> Please make up your mind. <br /><br />You dissapoint me Calladus. Please don't misquote me. I never said "everything must have a cause except this one thing". I said everything that has a beginning must have a cause. Perhaps this explains the lack of understanding.<br /><br />"It didn't bother me not to exist for the 13.7 billion years before I was born." <br /> Yes?? Not sure of the point. You didn't exist then. How could you be bothered by anything? You do exist now. Therefore you can comtemplate your future and the meaning of your existence. Are you truly saying you have no misgivings about the total meaningless of your existence and the existence of all of your loved ones and of all of human civilization?<br /><br />"..while someone I love is spending eternity being tortured by god."<br /><br />Please let me correct the crude misunderstanding that most skeptics have of Christian doctrine.<br />God doesn't torture anyone.<br />You and I face the consequences of our decisions. You believe those consequences are non existent or only momentary at the most and ultimately have no meaning as you have previously stated. I believe there are permanent consequences for the decisions I make. That gives my life and the decisions and actions resulting from those decisions great meaning.<br /> <br /> If I felt my life had no meaning I would live in the moment too. I would not believe in a benevolent creator. I would have a faith that denies it is faith. That faith would be based on one-dimensional evidence that I would chose to believe because it confirms my pre-conceived notions.<br /> If I truly believed that life had no meaning - that this life and the lives of my loved ones and of all of human civilization were, for all practical purposes, meaningless, I would spend the few moments of this existence puking my guts out. <br /><br />Imagine -<br /><br />The entire works of Shakespeare -<br />meaningless- pointless.<br /><br />The novels of Hemingway/Steinbeck/Twain/Hugo/Orwell,Dostoevsky, etc.etc.<br />Meaningless- pointless<br /><br />The symphonies of Beethoven/Mozart/Brahms/Dvorak,etc.<br />The works of Bach/Vivaldi<br />Meaningless- pointless<br /><br />The agony and ecstasy that produced the ceiling of the Sistine chapel<br />Meaningless- pointless<br /><br />The ageless insights of the Buddha/ Moses/ the Apostle Paul/Jesus/ Mohammed<br />Meaningless- pointless<br /><br />The beautifully constructed philosphies of Plato/Aristotle/Socrates/St.Augustine/Hume/Kant/C.S.Lewis, etc.<br />Meaningless- pointless.<br /><br />The profound discoveries of<br />Galileo/ Newton/ Einstein,etc.<br />Meaningless- pointless<br /><br />The look of joy and accomplishment on the face of your child as <br />he/she rides a bicycle down the street for the first time, overcoming the pain of skinned knees meeting hard ground.<br />Meaningless - pointless<br /><br />All of this - meaningless??<br /><br />I would do more than puke my guts out.<br />I would probably do what Hemingway did when he realized the futility of his beliefs - blow my brains out with a hunting rifle.<br />Or I would end up like Nietzsche when he realized the logical dead end his belief system - <br />in an insane asylum.Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-83168852204345903102011-12-27T20:39:15.475-08:002011-12-27T20:39:15.475-08:00Hitchens was eloquent. He was wrong on some issue...Hitchens was eloquent. He was wrong on some issues and right on others. But when he was wrong, he was wrong in such a way to make me really think in depth why he was wrong.<br /><br />As for him being wrong on the "ultimate issue" (I assume you mean God) he may have been, I don't know, but I doubt it. <br /><br />You don't know either, but you believe it.Calladushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-41988276000076667322011-12-27T15:45:29.222-08:002011-12-27T15:45:29.222-08:00Thanks Calladus for your fascinating responses. I ...Thanks Calladus for your fascinating responses. I will comment later. <br /><br />I would like to comment on the passing of Christopher Hitchens. I am not sure how you feel about him - I assume you admired him.<br />I will sorely miss him. What a fascinating, eloquent, charismatic human being! I truly enjoyed hearing him speak. Unlike Dawkins and a few other prominent "skeptics", he was a very likeable man. I would like to have known him personally. He was, of course, profoundly wrong about the ultimate issues. But, to quote Peter Kreeft, it takes a profound thinker to be profoundly wrong. He has made me think about what I truly believe and why. God bless him.Atascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629312200786887048noreply@blogger.com