tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post2582109410666223548..comments2023-08-08T04:19:26.974-07:00Comments on THE CALLADUS BLOG: A discussion with the Jedi PastorCalladushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17620879847877868166noreply@blogger.comBlogger1125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5736821.post-9712886542623408982008-09-26T10:57:00.000-07:002008-09-26T10:57:00.000-07:00Calladus, I thank you for your graciousness and Ph...Calladus, I thank you for your graciousness and Photoshop work (though my head is a bit on the tiny side there!) And as of yet, I’ve seen no soapbox and hope that in my response, I don’t pull one out either.<BR/><BR/>You said: <I>“But realize that science and atheism are not the same thing.”</I><BR/><BR/>I think that maybe one of the rubs. While you say they aren’t the same, it certainly seems the two are often equated. Maybe it is a “What came first scenario: chicken or egg,” that began with a Christian or an Atheist connecting it. Maybe it was Scopes. Regardless, the UMC has held the position, <BR/><BR/><I>“We recognize science as a legitimate interpretation of God’s natural world. We affirm the validity of the claims of science in describing the natural world, although we preclude science from making authoritative claims about theological issues” (2004 Book of Discipline of the UMC, pg 97, paragraph 160, E).</I> <BR/><BR/>But as you describe it, it seems to me, reasoned Christianity is already put in a hole precisely by a dichotomy not of our own choosing. On one side, we’re asked for material, demonstratable proof in God’s existence yet on the other side, if the Christian seeks to involve oneself in the scientific, you’ve indicated they have to put their faith to the side. Thank you for making the distinction that it is your point of view for I must disagree:<BR/><BR/>You said: <I>“From my point of view, your scientific friends are able to be scientists in spite of their religion, not because of it. I'm pretty familiar with the contents of the Bible, and I don't recall this sort of inquiry to be encouraged anywhere.”</I><BR/><BR/>In addressing this, John Wesley, in his sermon, “The Case of Reason impartially Considered,” turned to these words from Paul: <BR/><BR/><I>“Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. (1 Corinthians 14:20 NASB)” </I> <BR/><BR/>In short, Wesley then rights in his Notes on the New Testament:<BR/><BR/><I>“Knowing religion was not designed to destroy any of our natural faculties, but to exalt and improve them, our reason in particular.”</I><BR/><BR/>I would argue, at least, that logical reasoning and philosophical questioning was part of Biblical record. Ecclesiastes comes to mind as well as Jesus’ reasoning with religious leaders, and the records in Acts of Stephen, Peter and Paul. I think the historical record shows this continuing in the Early Church Fathers too. And, as I read history, the Church often viewed scientific research favorably, that is until it began to question dogma, mythology and superstition. <BR/><BR/>But as we’ve determined, we Methodists are a different flavor, in part, I believe because of our focus on reason. Our discussion has lead me to the Works of Wesley, which are often cast aside even by UMC clergy, I must confess. Yet it is in his “Address to the Clergy” (Vol. 10, pg 492) that John Wesley writes: <BR/><BR/>“Rather, have not my stupid indolence and laziness made me very ready to believe, what the little wits and pretty gentlemen affirm, “that logic is good for nothing?” It is good for this at least, to make people talk less; by showing them both what is, and what is not, to the point…Have I mastered Gravesande, Keill, Sir Isaac Newton’s Principia, with his ‘Theory of Light and Colours?”<BR/>And it is in this address to clergy that leads me back to your first challenge. I think it is the most personal and maybe most important…<BR/><BR/>You said: <I>“So I'm forced to believe that most Christians are in agreement, or at least not opposed, due to their silence. <BR/>Do you consider any of these religious leaders to be "almost Chrsitians"? And if so, do you speak against them, or try to teach others why these leaders may not be correct on an issue?”</I><BR/><BR/>Do I think they are “almost Christians?” I’d have to be in closer contact to determine though I’m honestly not holding my breath that such a conversation would be pleasant. As I’ve seen already, many “Christians” who have posted on atheist and skeptic sites tend to be most “unChristian.”<BR/><BR/>But to answer your point more directly, no, I’ve not spoken against them. Indirectly, certainly. I confess, I am wrestling with where I as a Christian and pastor do speak to such issues. I think that there is a similar thing occurring in the Church and with other clergy too. I certainly don’t sit around waiting for Bono to speak but I think he echoes what many of us feel (more so than Kirk Cameron I think). I feel compelled to stand in solidarity with Jim Wallis at Sojourners over any of the people you named (other than Dobson, I’m clueless – I can probably throw some from here that could be interchangeable).<BR/><BR/>You said: <I>And I have to wonder - what if you successfully converted me to Christianity, but instead of choosing to be a Methodist, I instead became one of those flavors of fundamentalist who condemn your scientific friends for their hubris in "playing God"? When you finally meet your maker, would that count as a "win" or a "loss"?</I> <BR/><BR/>I’m feeling a bit redundant but I would hope I could be as gracious as John Wesley. Though Wesley had parted ways with George Whitefield (one of the Holy Club) regarding theological differences, he still could speak eloquently and gracefully and truthfully regarding their friendship at Whitefield’s funeral.<BR/><BR/>Like Calladus, I don’t know who might have made it this far in our conversation but blessings to you! <BR/><BR/>Thanks for the Georgia comments too. Heather and I have now been here 10 years, which is longer than any other place we’ve lived. I’ve made my way out west a few times, hopefully we’ll make our way out there again.Ken Hagler, Your Alaskan Realtorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12356950549649622483noreply@blogger.com